Posted by: r.m. | February 5, 2010

lesbian birds :-)

These past few weeks, I’ve met a few people who consider homosexuality to be “un-natural” or to be a “disease that can be cured.”  Typical of such a perspective is the refusal to define “natural” or to define “disease.”  If “natural” is what exists in “nature,” what is found amongst other animals, then homosexuality is quite natural.  It is found among other primates (other than us, that is), other mammals, and even among birds.  Check out this news story about Lesbian Albatrosses :–)

… as a side note, one of the most vociferous opponents of homosexuality (yes, incidentally, all the folks I’ve met recently who considered homosexuality to be a disease and a sin, etc. etc., are men) was stunned when I told him that I may deny my son were he to join the US army but that I would love him equally were he to be a homosexual.  (He raised the comparison – expecting me to welcome my son – hypothetical that he is – to join the US army and to reject him were he to be gay.) I explained though that one is an institution that teaches killing and another is merely a different way of loving. He said he’d rather his son be a serial killer than a homosexual.  sigh…

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Responses

  1. No No Nooooo it’s not natural, nor desease but a sin!! truely !! and i won’t never ever beleive else even thus i love to hear others point of view, but i still prefer my son or daughter to be sriral killer but not a homosexual !! why ????
    because from a religious, moral point of view, IF homosexuality was to be a natural or right thing, GOD would have created 2 Adam(s) in the creation of human nation, but since he didn’t and he created a man and a women, as the NATURAL thing, thus homosexuality in NOT natural and will never be 😉

    second from a scientific point of view, i don’t need to say more than few word that i guess we all understand clear enough: ” MAN’s xxx only Fits a WOMAN’s xxx” bilogicaly sexualy normaly emotionaly…. etc… And i will refuse all kind of gays or lesbians !! because Humans are meant to be A MAN and a WOMAN in a normal life cycle !!!!

    from another side my point of view is only applied for humans but not for animals nor plants.. because that’s another issue to discuss !!!

  2. Ghadia where is Adam buried please? According to your logic, any issue that contradicts the divine will not be valid?? By the way, the computer that you are using now was in large part the product of Alan Turing’s work. If you do not know about him, check out wikipedia page about him. He was not only one of the most famous mathematicians of the last century and the founder of modern computer science but a gay too! So we must look at a person’s contribution to society and the world and not their way of life.

  3. sorry forgot to include link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

    BTW, Ghaida both your religious and scientific views are fantastically simplistic. They remind me of a certain ape that resided in the white house until last year 🙂

  4. Dear anonymous, why are you hidding yourselff ?? 😉 i’ve seen the link you added think you for sharing me that information that doesn’t change anything!! The man got a psychological problem, you don’t know if he was abused by someone or what got him to be like this truely ??!!
    second , thank you for the similarity which i refuse and disagree, and i’ll only reply by saying that sometimes simplisity is what we need, somethings we are meant to understand, others are not !!!

  5. Hi Ghadia, I just prefer to be anonymous, anyway we never met before so it doesn’t change anything. I was joking about the similarity to Bush 🙂 I am sure you are a nicer person. But seriously that was the logic that he uses, always very simplistic and absolutist. Well I disagree very strongly with you when you say that a gay person could have a psychological problem which causes tdem to be gay. On the other hand, societies’ refusal to accept them could very well cause them psychological problems! You don’t think that we should judge a person based on their contribution to the world and how they interact with others? Alan Turing contributed a lot of good. And you can find numerous heterosexuals who contributed nothing but destruction and evil like THAT ape in the white house 🙂 I think it’s best to base our opinions of others on what they do to the world not on something else.

  6. actually I do agree with you that it’s best to base our opinions of others on what they do to the world AND many things else !! Morality, huamnity, personality.. consider this Alan turing not a gay but a married man who abuses his wife and violent her!! would you still look at him the same way you do now, only because he is the one we should thank for our computers ?? From another side, actualy i prefer to call him a donky, because actualy apes are smarter than him and all the american presidents who ever ruled..

  7. by the way !! i’m glade to argue wiith you because we’ll never understand things or say the image perfectly unless we see it from all prespectives!!
    so thank you foor charing me your opinion 😉 pleasured to be talking with you anonymous 😛

  8. “see the image”***

  9. yay yay yayyy what a nice conversation?!!!!… i just want to ask ghadia: is it morality to despite someone because of his sexual orientation ( his own private life)?????

  10. mr anonymous said that we are to suppose to look at people at the perspective of what they did for their society. what about reproduction man ????!!!

    • Hi Amira. What about reproduction? What about married people who choose not to have kids? Think of all the orphans who could be adopted.

  11. Ghaida, OK I do not want to turn this into an Alan Turing discussion, but I do not think your example of wife abuse is fair because the marriage did not exist in the first place! But of course, in general I will not respect such a person. I brought Turing up as an example of how we should judge a person by their contribution not by how we ‘should’ dictate their private lifestyle.

    Its nice to exchange views with you too. I hope you will change your view later in life when you encounter people from different backgrounds. But don’t you think donkeys are more useful than Bush? 😉

  12. Hello again Anonymous, beleive when i say that i have seen alot in my life, and i have discovered that one of my best friends is actually gay, and another girl was a lesbian who actually tried to convince me that she likes me 😉 thank god i’m already in love and have a boyfriend !! i still friend with both of them, i don’t blame them for being like this, i truely feel sorry for them to choose this pass for them in life, but it is a wrong pass to go with no happy ending!! because happiness in life as was described by the holy koran is in 2 things : money and marriage !! Normal marriage !! the one who have kids from, the one by which who could have the chance to be a Mother or a Father, and live parenty and many other normal things in life !!

    To Amira i respect everyones own private life and private sexual life !! But you can’t deny that we are not living alone, but in a society !!!

    And Mr./Ms. Anonymous of course donkeys are more useful than Bush !! 😉

  13. Come on Ghadia, this was a very weak argument from the Koran. There are many rich and married people who live miserably. I am not saying that you should deliberately be single and/or poor but wealth and martial status are simply no guarantees for happiness.

    Also, what about people who don’t believe in the ancient texts like the Koran and Bible? There is a different set of ethics that is not imposed from some power above but rather stems from our experiences. What hurts others is bad and what does good to society is good.

  14. It is pitiful the extent to which religion can mutialte people’s minds and souls. There is a set of rules in this life set by people who have power. Smart people break the rules whereas less smart people get caught by the rules and the weak ones obey the rules. Dear Ghadia, life is not based on religions and to my opinion religion is manmade and its only goal is to control man by making them fear what they don’t know.
    To my knwoledge your god promotes love and demotes evil. But as smart as we are, we interpret everything with our weak faculties of thinking and analyzing. The result is, and I am sure God would disagree, homosexual people are treated with evil, and love is refused whereas evil is spread. I agree with anonymous that your views are simplistic and lack analysis because if you do the thinking you will figure out that rules and religious guidelines are made to manufacture people exactly like you, who obey the rules and refuse the change. As you know our dear scientific ghadia who is uncapable of naming things as natural as penis and vagina by their names, nothing is static and what does not change or develops regresses. you should always have a critical thinking and not accept the things as they are otherwise the world will run to its defeat.

  15. Dear Jessica, I’m proud of my religion, proud to obey the Lord with no discussion !! Don’t worry my scientific minde know the “penis ” and Vegina !! and i’m sure i’m capable to name them already, but i prefered not to write them in respect to others, because some of us still have that moral respect that others don’t !! From another way, my first reference in all matters of life and death is the Holy Koran and no word is above the word of God for me !! No matter how life changes or people change !! I will always love that simpicity in thinking that you acuse me by !! it’s complication what makes people like you go crazy at the end.. we are not perfect !! never will be !! and no type or any kind of science will ever carry all answers to the world !! only God have all the answers !!

  16. To be fair to Ghadia, the vast majority of people from our part of the world, including those living abroad, share her beliefs/thinking. I always wondered how to tackle this issue (ethics based on human experience/science vs religion) but it seems futile to counter any argument who has divine backing. Religion is an important part of many peoples’ lives and they are genuinely offended if they are presented with a counter-argument. God plays no role in my life but I could imagine how my character would change if it were the ‘base’ on which all my views are built.

  17. Well anonymous you are right. Some people just refuse to change. Maybe they are happy the way they are and the way things are for them. After all ignorance is a warm and fuzzy worldcto be part of! With ignorance comes peace of mind and security and that’s what the mass of the population wants. So let it be.
    But then, I would argue against Marx’s views to abolish the classes in a society. I think each person must occupy the status and the position he chose for himself. Some choose to be common and do nothing about the world and some chose to make a change. And for a change to happen, old ideologies should be reconsidered and improved.

  18. PS: I have the very strange feeling that this anonymous knows us both so well, but prefers to hide in order for us to speak freely, especially when it comes to such a critical subject as religion.

  19. Dear Jessica, I can assure you that we never met at all. In fact, I do not even live in Lebanon which I have been to only once in my life probably before you were both born 🙂 I am in the UK. So it is impossible for us to know each other. In any case, it is very nice to exchange views with you. Speak freely all the time!

  20. Jessica, regarding position of people in society, this is a very complex issue. I have been battling it all my life. On the one hand, we have a view of how a just world should be like. On the other hand, some people are so uneducated as to accept, indeed embrace, illegitimate authority be it political, religious, or something else. I think the only way out is through education which takes more than one generation. Only an educated people can really embrace a radical change.

  21. Dear anonymous, the example we have above is as educated as I am. To reach a college level and still think like that is simply a shame. I think that people are being educated in a wrong way. The schools are all religious, the universities too at least in Lebanon. The solution to suhc a problem is quite impossible unless a huge meteorite just destroys all the dumb people in power.

  22. I agree Jessica. I was referring to education on a general level not to any particular person. Also, I was not only referring to education on religious issues, but much wider than that including for example the acceptance of political and economic authority as a given. One particularly difficult issue that I came across hundreds of times is the sheer number of people who believe that present day capitalism is the best system for our world disregarding how the relentless drive for profit causes serious violation of human rights and great damage to the environment. OK I am drifting away from the original topic a bit but how can one go about and educate people that there are alternatives? I think your example of a meteorite may be useful in illustrating that we may unfortunately need a great catastrophe in order for people to ‘get it’.

    • Before interfering in the discussion can i just know why the anonymous is hiding his identity???

  23. According to me, homosexuality is neither natural and nor disease. It is simply a sin that we cannot accept it; however we cannot also reject homosexual people because they are not causing harm to me and to anyone else.
    If i had a lesbian daughter or a gay son, i would never think about rejecting him; in fact, by doing so i will not help him/her to stop this act, in contrary he/she will continue doing whatever they want.
    However by helping them and by giving advices, sharing some experiences, and treating them well, i will be a good persuasive mother.

  24. scientifically speaking, homosexuality is not wrong since it is observed in nature not only in birds but in dogs and other animals.
    psychologically speaking, homosexuality is not wrong but is considered as an illness (a psychological illness that is), but is no as dangerous as to oblige the person to get therapy in order to heal. in other words, if the person is ok with himself being gay, psychotherapists would prefer him to remain that way.
    nonetheless, a person’s sexual orientation should not form a threat for other people as long as it is not practiced in public (i also beleive that normal display of affection in normal people should not be done in public)…in conclusion, let judgement be that of God if God exists, and let people live without terrorisung them

    nonetheless

  25. I totally aprove to what Jessica said that God promotes good and rejects evil. By prefering your son to be a serial killer is for sure not obeying God’s rules. I really liked the article specially the part where they talk about the 2 mothers raising their baby. This is evoluting today. I think that if two men or women love eachother why not adopt a baby … there are many children who have no parents and i think any kind of affection would matter to them. Even if the society refuses it getting a mother’s affection is better than not having one. I think the problem here is not religion … it’s our society who still differenciates between races, religions so what do we expect of homesexuality. Yes the normal and usual way is a man and a woman but i don’t think any of us is following the rules in their everyday lives….

  26. first, that article is amongst my favorites because it reflects the society we are living in. Personally, i would be a little bit repulsed if I saw a gay couple making out somewhere in public but i still reckon that it’s one face of humanity. I believe that alot of people through history were gays but didn’t have the guts to state it out loud. Take the notorious roman emperor for example Caligula, well they said he was gay. Take many other emperors and kings that passed history, they were also talked of as gay. I believe that people are unable to accept the fact that a homosexual person is still a normal person, he is treated as crasy or unsane. It’s all due to our society that still stands in place and didn’t evolve within the past few decades. We are standing in place whereas other countries have reached the moon, this has incapacitated us big time. Unless society evolves, it is by default natural for those that reject homosexuality to keep on rejecting it .

  27. homosexuality is it a genetic or a choice? the most imporatnt thing in homosexuality is will society accept who you are?,i always think that we think about homosexuality that what they are doin is a shame or sin? but what about them what do they think about us?

  28. sorry for mistake,i commented about this article,,but by mistake my name didnt appear.

  29. whilst homosexuality may be a sin in our societies it is throughouly practiced throughout the animal kingdom be it young male lions without a pride, bonobos or even dolphins. homosexuality is a pretty normal trait for any animal(humans included) it sometimes may even benifit the species rather than cause problems( such as close group ties in bonobos or in the case of albatroses increasing the success of proginy with 2 parents rather than 1 even if there are very few males around).


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